Share your feedback on the AI services experiment in Nightly

[asafko]

Hi folks, 

In the next few days, we will start the Nightly experiment which provides easy access to AI services from the sidebar. This functionality is entirely optional, and it’s there to see if it’s a helpful addition to Firefox. It is not built into any core functionality and needs to be turned on by you to see it. 

If you want to try the experiment, activate it via Nightly Settings > Firefox Labs (please see full instructions here). 

We’d love to hear your feedback once you try out the feature, and we’re open to all your ideas and thoughts, whether it’s small tweaks to the current experience or big, creative suggestions that could boost your productivity and make accessing your favorite tools and services in Firefox even easier.

Thanks so much for helping us improve Firefox!

[Mardak]

The latest Nightly 130 (20240726152430) has an initial exploration of custom prompts that you can activate from about:config with `browser.ml.chat.shortcuts` (to get the text selection popup) and `browser.ml.chat.shortcuts.custom` (to get the input box).

Is this something like what you were thinking?

[myspace]

Thanks going to try it out now!

[FastBrowser2022]

I tried using the right click > Simplify text option with Gemini. It worked the first time, but the 2nd time Gemini did a bot check. It otherwise worked fine after completing it.

I also tested it with Chat-GPT 4o, this worked for summarizing the same text and simplifying content.

However I noticed there is no context menu option to simply highlight text and re-write text in an unsubmitted text input field

[Mardak]

A quick test of this text input field for replying 📝 seems to work for selecting the text and passing it to the chatbot 🤖. However the current sidebar integration requires copy/pasting the result back to the original text input field 📋.

What were you wanting to do with this if it was more seamless? 🤔

 

[lackey]

Considering the privacy problems, corporate centralization, and environmental issues caused by the companies represented in Mozilla's AI chatbot integration, I have some potential recommendations, ranked from most to least palatable.

• Entirely discontinue this experiment and stop pursuing AI.
• Cannibalize the work done for integrating these 4 proprietary websites into Firefox, and use it for allowing users to add any website of their choice to the sidebar (like Floorp, Edge, or Vivaldi).
• Continue developing AI, but as a browser extension that is not shipped with Firefox.
• Continue developing AI, and ship it as a browser extension that does come with Firefox, but can be fully erased by users if they so choose.

[piradata]

these two last ones are not the same? would be just a new extension on the mozilla store, like adguard or multiaccount containers, simply tab groups, etc

[lackey]

I thought maybe if they really wanted to bundle this into the browser, that it should simply be an extension that can be deleted. The same way Pocket and Fakespot were previously just extensions.

[ffffff]

Not a big fan either, but in fairness, working directly with the browser is probably quite the shortcut and may allow access to functionality that extensions aren't able to use, for better or for worse, leading to a more unified design and user experience on the whole. I like the translations being built-in instead of an extension. If I liked the AI stuff, I'd probably prefer it this way as well.

[Mardak]

It sounds like the primary concern is based on the initial list of companies providing the chatbots. Are there other companies that have better privacy, corporate, environmental aspects that should be included? We've since added Anthropic and will add more choices that people want.

[lackey]

My greatest concern is that Mozilla is engaging in this at all, wasting precious employee time and resources on a feature that users didn't request. I realize you probably had nothing to do with this, but I hope whoever made that decision gets to see the community outcry. 

I think others have expressed my lesser concerns better, such as saying that LLM models abandoned privacy for the people whose data they scrape, which goes against the Mozilla manifesto (that privacy must not be treated as optional, in a way that is not limited to the users of a particular browser). Sure, users can download a pre-compiled language model, but the sourcing of that model also needs to be ethical, which is something that Mozilla has realized and attempted to do in the past with their Common Voice project.

Mozilla is at its best when it's creating trends, not following them. Microsoft and Google are going to win at the big data game. They always have. And that's all AI is.

[Mardak]

There are many existing chatbot users, so could you agree that Firefox engaging with these people provides more opportunity to guide them to more open and better privacy models?

[ffffff]

Sorry, not the person you answered to, but could you elaborate on what you mean by "provides more opportunity" here? Do you mean that, by having people that use LLM chatbots use/switch to Firefox, Mozilla will have more influence over their web experience and will thus be able to provide them a generally more private option to interact with the internet than other browsers? Or perhaps, more literally, that Mozilla will have the opportunity to try "selling" these people on the concept of more open and private LLM models?

Theoretically, yes, engaging with specific tech might be the best way to affect how people interact with it. But I'm not sure if that's what would happen here, or at least that's not the only thing I believe would happen. It's likely Mozilla would also be steering many people who didn't use AI that much until then straight into the likes of OpenAI.

Even considering the following (assuming it reached stable in a similar state):

This functionality is entirely optional, and it’s there to see if it’s a helpful addition to Firefox. It is not built into any core functionality and needs to be turned on by you to see it.

There are surely many who would learn about this little option in their settings that gives them access to a cool copilot when browsing the web, and turn it on, because why wouldn't they—Firefox itself is offering. You can hardly call that a privacy enhancement in their lives. I'm also unconvinced that, given the choice between OpenAI's GPT-4o Mini or the latest and greatest open source model, average users would pick the latter—especially after testing both.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I'm trying to understand Mozilla's angle here, and I appreciate all help anyone can offer with this. Right now, it just sort of feels like Mozilla is implementing AI because that's what everyone is doing, and that's what you gotta do in 2024. This feature is simply letting people pick between multiple LLM options (mostly commercial), which is a respectably neutral position, but it's not really guiding anyone towards more privacy.

---

Putting aside all other issues, here's an interesting question: while delivering this feature to users at large, what exactly is Mozilla planning to do to ensure it puts its best effort towards preserving users' privacy as much as possible even as they are openly offered the worst, yet most popular choices?

Because we all know the vast majority don't read or care about these:

---

By choosing ChatGPT, you agree to the OpenAI Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.

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[Mardak]

The current chatbot feature is behind a Firefox Labs checkbox to enable, so presumably mostly those who would even consider or already use a chatbot like ChatGPT. Even the most basic choice UI showing a menu list seems to have resulted in people discovering alternatives, and as we get closer to release, we can polish with potentially more educational / informative provider choice screen to help users decide such as availability of private chats, login requirements, quality of responses, etc.

This is still an early implementation of something functional of even getting the selected chatbots to respond in the sidebar, and we can add more options and guidance such as towards more privacy.

[ffffff]

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[...] as we get closer to release, we can polish with potentially more educational / informative provider choice screen to help users decide such as availability of private chats, login requirements, quality of responses, etc.

---

If that's the plan, fair enough.

I'll try to keep the original point of the discussion thread in mind more often and see if there's anything I can offer regarding general use feedback.

[lackey]

Which of the four models have only used data with explicit consent, and which of the four have released the source of the data, not just a pre-compiled binary blob of it? As far as I can tell, none of these match the fundamental privacy Mozilla advocates for. 

Mozilla also has warned against trusting all four of these providers, writing "opting out is a request you can make to the company. You have to trust them to honor it -- and Big Tech hasn’t always played by the rules when it comes to consumers’ data."

[BlorgBlorgBlorg]

No, because, as you are aware, such models do not exist.  It would be more honest to either not respond to AI critics at all, or directly tell them you (and Mozilla) don't care about their concerns.

[PrankishHarmon]

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@lackey wrote:

a feature that users didn't request

---

Who are these users? This generalised statement sounds biased and echo-chamber-y. The once who don't want this kind of feature will be loudest and most enganged in this thread, not necessarily the majority of Firefox users.

[lackey]

I said users didn't request it.

If you want to see users not requesting it, just look at this whole forum before Mozilla announced the unwanted, un-requested AI feature. 

You're among them. 

[BlorgBlorgBlorg]

There are not any companies operating in the LLM space that meet ethical standards regarding privacy and environmental impact, as you are aware.  Asking anyway creates the illusion that you are open to this feedback, and puts the onus on the person who shared their concerns with you in good faith to waste their time answering.  It would be more honest to either not respond to AI critics at all, or directly tell them you (and Mozilla) don't care about their concerns.

[qu1j0t3]

there is no ethical way to train and run LLMs. it just so happens that the companies you've named are particularly vile.

[everentropy]

That is absolutely not the main concern, it's just the only one you're paying attention to.

[advpod]

No.

Stop adding dumb trendy features. Spend engineering effort on integrating features that have nothing to do with browsing the web into a web browser. If I wanted to use a chatbot, I would install a chatbot app onto my computer. Features that have nothing to do with browsing the web have no place being in a web browser.

[Mardak]

How many people install separate chatbot apps vs access from a web browser? It seems like many people who do use chatbots are already using a web browser and likely manually copy/pasting information from tab to tab.

Your point of non-browser usage is still interesting, so could you provide some more concrete examples?

[Kwonunn]

Then just make it possible for extensions to add sidebar tabs and offer this as an extension! Instead of genuinely adding something useful to Firefox you've just opened Pandora's Box.

[IBBoard]

---

@Mardak wrote:

Your point of non-browser usage is still interesting, so could you provide some more concrete examples?

---

Let's flip it around. Can you provide some concrete examples of where adding this to Firefox is necessary and beneficial over having a separate app or an extension or (heaven forbid) just visiting the chatbot's website directly?

So far there appears to be absolutely nothing compelling about including this. A big company like Mozilla must have a Product Manager. Someone must have seen a user story and said "Yes! This is a killer one that we must spend engineering effort on!". But the huge, overwhelming majority of responses here seem to show that it's a user story that's out of touch with its users.

So what was that user story? What makes it so important? What value is this supposed to unlock that simpler, more ethical, more privacy-preserving and less environmentally damaging approaches can't do?

[eladio77]

Amazing feature. I find the funtion, but when i have active the vertical tabs i can not see the Boton "Chat IA", only i can see it without "Vertical Tabs" active. Can you add the shortcut access to the Vertical Tab menu?

[Mardak]

If you're referring to the new "sidebar.revamp" (with "sidebar.verticalTabs"), you should now have the AI chatbot icon available as shortcut access in today's Nightly.

 

[mcortt]

Very nice! But please add a keyboard shortcut to open it as well.

Edit: I didn't see where you had replied to my earlier suggestion. Please disregard, sorry!

[eladio77]

Thanks..  is working ...

[nclm]

Please Mozilla, don’t get lost. AI chatbots is a very silly feature, and it makes it hard to take you seriously. I know investors love it these days when tech companies integrate anything “AI” in their product, but you’re Mozilla, we all expect you to behave differently and for the good of the users and the web. There is no demand for AI chatbots, only unsolicited offer from the tech world, please don’t be part of this! There is nothing ethical about about offering a feature that is consistently giving misinformation based on stolen data processed on energy and water wasting machines. It would be lovely if you could focus your ressources on actually improving the browser and on communication campaigns to get more users, not on jumping on the latest fad. Thank you ❤️

[Mardak]

Have you found any uses of AI chatbots for your own situation? It sounds like you correctly don't trust the responses, and others with similar concerns can still find value with these tools such as entertainment.

[AdventureGamer]

What is entertaining about weakening the privacy standards of one of the only browsers worthy of respect in the whole internet? I love you Firefox. Please, please, please don't ruin what you have. You'll force me off my only & favorite browser. To be frank, if Firefox becomes Chrome with a coat of paint, I'll bail I swear to god - and I won't be the only one. What will investors say then? You're the last bastion of integrity in the whole game. Don't throw that away...

[Mardak]

Part of the reason for Firefox providing choices is so people can switch to those with better privacy standards. Do you have suggestions for existing providers that should be in the list or are you suggesting that Mozilla should have a service with better privacy?

[BlorgBlorgBlorg]

As you are aware, providers with ethical privacy standards do not exist. It would be more honest to either not respond to AI critics at all, or directly tell them you (and Mozilla) don't care about their concerns.

[MageBunkshelf]

If the matter is choice then make this an extension or don't make it at all. I choose to not associate with this kind of AI tech on ethical grounds. If Mozilla will continue with this plan to integrate this into Firefox then I will choose a different browser, and I say that as a Firefox advocate for over a decade.

[Lenyberry]

It's extremely clear that what everyone here is suggesting is that adding "AI" to your product degrades the privacy standards your users expect. Is it worth destroying your reputation?

[wwahammy]

I would advocate that users avoid Firefox going forward because you can't trust what abusive features they're going to add.

[fournm]

Respectfully, I expect better of Mozilla than encouraging environmental harm for entertainment.

[MageBunkshelf]

So if the reponses these bots give are "correctly" not to be trusted, do you think that some people finding the prompt results "entertaining" is worth the mass data scraping, the plagiarism and theft, and the considerable energy cost required to run these machines? If we're still talking about whether they have a use in the first place when the negatives are staring us in the face, why is this being added as a core feature to the base version of the browser?

If someone at Mozillla is dead-set on making this, then at minimum make it an extension so that people can opt-in to having it on their computer in the first place, rather than directing a mass audience to use an external private tool based on stolen data that *correctly* shouldn't be trusted.

[Lenyberry]

Firefox is a web browser, not a game. People don't want Firefox to entertain them, they want it to do the job they downloaded it for: enable them to browse the internet with relative privacy. Chatbot integration degrades the privacy protection of the browser in, frankly, unacceptable ways.

Those who wish to use a chatbot for entertainment can use the standard web browser functionality to navigate to one on the web.