cancel
Showing results for 
Show  only  | Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Share your feedback on the AI services experiment in Nightly

asafko
Employee
Employee

Hi folks, 

In the next few days, we will start the Nightly experiment which provides easy access to AI services from the sidebar. This functionality is entirely optional, and it’s there to see if it’s a helpful addition to Firefox. It is not built into any core functionality and needs to be turned on by you to see it. 

If you want to try the experiment, activate it via Nightly Settings > Firefox Labs (please see full instructions here). 

We’d love to hear your feedback once you try out the feature, and we’re open to all your ideas and thoughts, whether it’s small tweaks to the current experience or big, creative suggestions that could boost your productivity and make accessing your favorite tools and services in Firefox even easier.

Thanks so much for helping us improve Firefox!

3,316 REPLIES 3,316

Yep - and I'll jump ship of this goes ahead.

Also jumping ship if this goes ahead. Nightmare idea.

we've already had AI companies lie about stealing material for their databases, why do you believe them when they talk about privacy?


@Mardak wrote:

We included chatbot providers like HuggingChat which says: "We endorse Privacy by Design.

Assurances like this from companies in that space are worthless. Your kind of credulous presentation of them as some kind of magic pill to make the badness go away is a central reason why Mozilla's word is rapidly sinking to that same (non)credibility level.

 

"Keep in mind that opting out is a request you can make to the company. You have to trust [AI  companies including HuggingChat] to honor it -- and Big Tech hasn’t always played by the rules when it comes to consumers’ data.

Source: Mozilla, "How to Protect Your Privacy From ChatGPT and Other AI Chatbots"

God, I forgot that they put out that statement. This is ridiculous - who paid off Mozilla to change their minds?

I sure hope someone did. It would be really sad if they did it for free, but right now I think a lot of companies have stars in their eyes over AI.

What in the world is a use case for a chatbot in my browser? Like, literally, what is this being designed for? What problem is this solving?

I think much less of Firefox for even trying to defend this with "well we endorse privacy, so we promise that it's safe - we don't host the data!" as if that's the problem with this in the first place. Just look at the kudos ratios between this and everyone screaming from the rooftops how awful this is.

-0
Making moves

Why does this need to be shipped with Firefox? Can't this be an extension? I want less AI, not more. 😞

This is currently a first integration of AI with plans for more optional functionality that don't require a sidebar interface, e.g., suggesting tabs that are relevant to your current activity or name for a tab group. Getting to more seamless integrations would likely be trickier as an extension and can be implemented with minimal impact for those who don't want it.

You're carrying water for the colonization of the digital space, slapping every single Firefox user in the face.

Mozilla was supposed to be better than that. How actually dare you.

"minimal impact" is still an impact.  please rethink this as people use firefox to get away from the privacy violating MO of the other browsers.  You should not in any way be forcing AI on your user base.  Its truly unfortunate the mozilla cannot seem to understand why users pick firefox over others.  There is no reason other than it being "trickier", as you say, not to make this an extension.  Sometimes work is hard.  Stop taking shortcuts and preserve firefox as is.

There's AI in many forms in Firefox such as how it predicts the page you want to revisit from the address bar and translates content locally on device. If these AI capabilities were moved to extensions, it would probably significantly reduce the benefit users get from Firefox and likely prevent other useful features such as privacy preserving AI alternatives.

This is a forum with a bunch of tech-savvy computer geeks. Not a VC firm with more money than sense. If this post was an announcement that you have developed a machine learning algorithm predicting which tab you want to switch to - that would get a positive reception.

But if you make a very general statement that you are implementing "AI", have hooked up four extremely problematic LLM chatbots, and that this is just the beginning - you will not. The responses are going to be "NO", "STOP IT" and "GOD NO PLEASE DO LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE INSTEAD".

And there are clearly dedicated commenters here, making lengthy efforts to spell out the individual problems they see at the heart of LLMs and this project in detail. Up to writing an entire analysis of all the core Firefox principals they feel are violated. Followed by comments from your end on how that feedback is being taken into consideration.

I don't share that optimism. There are certainly constructive lessons to be learned here, but not by taking the team that seemingly didn't see these problems for the entire time that they were developing it, and giving them those comments for consideration.

This is a textbook case for setting up a quick Red Team if I ever saw one. Please, for the love of god, get a few trusted and knowledgeable people together from outside the project. Let them take a critical look at the whole situation. Because the current gap between the users and the dev team is too big to be filled by some basic constructive criticism, and it can end up doing real damage here.

It's basically just a tab in the sidebar instead of where it usually sits on top.
If you dont want want to use a website then dont visit it.

WE DON'T CARE.

WE DON'T WANT THIS **bleep**. PURE AND SIMPLE.

no, you don't want it *present* on your machines. if it is present, but disabled, there still will be cases when it gets turned on (e.g. by an automatic update, which happily overwrites settings). And then private data on your machines is no longer private.

 

 

I wrote a five paragraph comment, spelling out my concerns that the advocates of this feature are entirely missing the point on why so many users are deeply concerned about its implementation like this.

To which you apparently responded Just don't use it? Thank you for trying to ease my concerns - BUT THAT'S NOT HELPING.

If chatbots or something of that stain of "AI" gets forced onto me with Firefox - there are always other browsers.

But those aren't machine learning or an LLM, they don't require an internet connection, nor do they burn your cpu and gpu alive to perform.

Any reputable use of what we called "AI" before has moved on to more specific terminology to distance itself from both the hype train of LLMS, or image generation, and their negative press, we can live with just ranking pages based on how many times you visited them to predict which page they are most likely to visit, but users are drawing the line at automatically including LLMs, that either consume significant resources to produce the barest output or require a cloud connection to perform.

Please try and remember that you're making a web browser, anything past "browsing the web" should be an extension.

You know exactly what the difference between these algorithms and the LLM integration you're working on is. It would be more honest to either not respond to AI critics at all, or directly tell them you (and Mozilla) don't care about their concerns.

You know full well that those are not the AI stuff we are concerned about. By including and promoting products from these wildly unethical AI companies Mozilla is indirectly worsening the whole thing. Please please please remove this.

The fact that you are comparing LLM-driven features to non-LLM powered features such as autofill and completion suggestions shows that either A) you have no frikin clue what you're talking about. But I'm going to assume you're not an idiot and you do in fact know the difference between how autofills and suggestions work vs how "AI"/LLMs work, which leaves me with B) you're choosing to be incredibly dishonest with the user base by making comments such as this in an attempt to leverage our assumed stupidity (news flash, most of us aren't idiots and even we know the difference here) to convince us this feature is the same as existing features in implementation and protocol. It is not. You know. I know this. We know this. Stop being dishonest with us because you've already convinced yourselves this will be added and now you're doing the same thing every techbro is and play dumb to sell the userbase on a feature they didn't ask for.

 

Focus on more programmatic and direct engineering solutions to whatever you think "AI" will accomplish instead of using AI as a shortcut for new features.

We don't want this garbage at all. That is the vast majority of users' opinion.

No one wants this garbage.

No one cares what moronic opinion you have on it.

You're being intentionally obtuse. You know those aren't the same things.

You're conflating actual automation of tasks and generative AI (the plagiarism machine) and therefore providing cover to techbros and VC investors that are trying to rebrand all (useful) automation features as AI.

An algorithm IS NOT AI. And you're weaseling words here.

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.

MOZILLA WASN'T FOUNDED FOR THIS, THIS IS A DISGRACE TO THE VERY CORE MISSION AND STATEMENT OF MOZILLA AND FIREFOX.

I'm old enough to remember when that was called "machine learning," and wasn't doing the branding work for giant companies that do not have the Internet's best interests at heart.

Address bar completion / tab prediction doesn't use "AI". It uses simple substring autocompletion and tab metadata heuristics that have been around for many years, without the ethical and environmental concerns now in play wrt LLMs.

And if you specifically mean the "fuzzy" tab matching/completion that LLMs can provide, then you've found the exact features of AI that have made Google's AI Assistant a laughing stock — the least useful, least relevant, and least wanted features, that you SHOULD want to keep far away from such a fundamentally important project as Firefox.

As for translation... IFF LLMs were used in page content translation, and IFF such use were actually "privacy-preserving", then that seems an _ideal_ opportunity for an optional extension rather than integrated LLM nonsense.

This is undoubtedly a thankless job, even if you are a proponent of the feature. But your employer has solicited feedback on this "feature", so it seems strange that so many employee responses seem to be trying to convince opponents of the feature that their feedback is wrong, rather than simply collecting, considering, and acting on it.

This is what happens when all algorithms are suddenly called "AI"...

How.... "delightfully" disingenuous.

I was going to expound on that, but honestly it's so disingenuous this is all it deserves. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

History suggestions, is that all you got? We need AI for that?

We're not stupid. There's a clear difference between translations based on machine learning and prediction algorithms, and LLMs. We want the LLMs out. Take them out.

Y'know, when you try to rules-lawyer about any kind of algorithm/machine learning being "artificial intelligence" and try to re-brand stuff that already existed with the buzzword of the moment... in a roundabout way, you kinda help undermine the very illusion the AI crowd is trying to perpetuate.

"AI" is just the latest marketing umbrella, and it's dishonest to try and excuse the bad stuff (GenAI and LLMs) by pointing to the good stuff (data analysis, machine learning models, or simple "ranking by similarity and visit count" metrics most of what the address bar does).

If someone wants to use GenAI and LLMs then they can choose to use an extension. Nothing about an extension increases or decreases the options on privacy-preserving AI. You then also preserve the privacy of more people by not having it in there for the majority who have zero use, and for whom GenAI is a net negative to society.

No3
Making moves

Kindly stop putting your fingers in your ears because you got told 'No' and you don't like being told 'No'. 

(See Haagee's comment for a clear and concise breakdown about why your replies are bs so far though I doubt you'll listen to that either. Banging your own 'we are the best we know best we could never be wrong' cymbals too loudly to hear anything else.)

The benefit that users get from firefox is the absence of exactly this kind of garbage. You are making your product worse and removing the very reason why people use it.

People don't use firefox because they want to follow the latest trends. They use it because the competition is toxic and hostile. Firefox's raison d'etre is to provide a way for people to browse the web without having to bow to corporate overlords. If you start treating people like your competition does, firefox will cease to exist.

What we want to avoid is increasing usage of bullcrap generators, especially those built on plagiarism on an unprecedented scale. (We also want to avoid any features that might read more of our data than we've consented to, but it looks like this feature doesn't proactively send data to them without permission -- for now.)

A locally built Bayesian model to determine which URL I am likely to navigate to based on my first few keypresses in the address bar does not have those problems. Conflating them is disingenuous.

This is deliberately obtuse, not to mention misattributing common browser heuristics to "AI."

I'm sure you've long since tied your horse to the AI post, but please don't insult our intelligence with this sort of disingenuous posturing.