With version 113.0.1, the tab bar is back at the top where I loath having it

[Notsmiling]

With this latest update, the userChrome.css file is either partially or totally ignored. Thus, tab bar is back at the top. When I use Firefox extensively like I do, I develop a muscle memory for where things are. In my opinion, and like many, many other people who agree with me, having the tab bar at the top is completely illogical. I'm sure at this point that Mozilla has received enough negative feedback about having the tab bar at the top that they are aware that this is a problem for a lot of people. One would think that they actually might want to consider making the tab bar location optional in order to keep end users. For example, in my case this is such a huge issue that I'm now looking around for another browser. I simply don't have the time to continually squander on overcoming major paradigm shifts.

[Anonymous]

Yup, as soon as I started FF the update installed and the tabs were at the top AGAIN. And the line spacing is still too large in the bookmark dropdowns. I've seen a lot of requests from people to make it look like Edge. Just don't do it!!!

[BalloonPark]

They previously were deleting my posts about this, so it is nice to see other post getting allowed through.

I don't understand why the Firefox developers break custom userChrome.css with every update. We just want tabs on the bottom to be an easy feature. Either:

1.  Make tabs on bottom something we can easily change with regular settings or

2. Don't change the browser so drastically that userChome.css needs to be updated.

Why is this being ignored for years? I'm convinced Firefox developers hate their users.

[Notsmiling]

I see the following reply to your censored post:

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@BalloonPark wrote:

They previously were deleting my posts about this, so it is nice to see other post getting allowed through.

I don't understand why the Firefox developers break custom userChrome.css with every update. We just want tabs on the bottom to be an easy feature. Either:

1.  Make tabs on bottom something we can easily change with regular settings or

2. Don't change the browser so drastically that userChome.css needs to be updated.

Why is this being ignored for years? I'm convinced Firefox developers hate their users.

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Jorge Villalobos wrote:

Hello. This website is moderated, so your proposals may be pending moderation. The purpose of this site is to offer ideas and gather feedback on those ideas from the community. This particular post isn't really an actionable idea, so it won't be published. I can't speak to the other ones since I haven't seen them.

So.... your post was blocked because it was not "an actionable idea"? That's ridiculous on the face of it. One has to wonder *why* would it not be "an actionable idea". If it wasn't "an actionable idea" (which I strongly doubt is the case), then it seems to me that it would serve the community to make public a reply explaining why this isn't the case.

Something smells ....badly, to me.

[Anonymous]

I disagree with the moderator. Users are advancing ideas that used to be options and are providing feedback to changes made with this release. This should be an "Actionable Item". It was an action taken to remove a user option that exited in the tool bar customization menu.

[Notsmiling]

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@Anonymous wrote:

I disagree with the moderator. Users are advancing ideas that used to be options and are providing feedback to changes made with this release. This should be an "Actionable Item". It was an action taken to remove a user option that exited in the tool bar customization menu.

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Yep, totally with you on this. Just because the moderator thinks that the suggestion isn't "actionable", doesn't mean that any of the many programmers working on Firefox agree. IMO, the moderator is out of control when he or others of them block ideas that they simply don't like. This is exactly the kind of thing will result in a fork which will do to Mozilla what Mozilla did to Netscape years ago.

[pweeks]

Hum . . . seems a step beyond best practices.  I can remember a few companies that ignored their customers.  So "actionable" is the operative word.  Alex, I'd love to phrase it as a question to make it "actionable." 

Is it possible to please your **customers** by creating a simple menu selection that allows them to have the tabs on the bottom, please?

Will that work?

Ugh!  Really??

[jscher2000]

I assume everyone here knows what is going on by now:

Firefox 113 deleted a group of proprietary CSS properties whose names start with -moz-box, including -moz-box-ordinal-number, which was often used in CSS rules as a hack to change the vertical sequence of elements. There are now standard CSS properties you need to use instead.

You can get links and code suggestions in the following Mozilla Support thread, or on the FirefoxCSS subreddit:

• https://support.mozilla.org/questions/1412961
• https://www.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/

[mckyj57]

It wasn't 113.0 that did this, it was 113.0.1. One might ask -- why pick a 0 to 0.1 transition to simply remove cruft?

As an open source author whose project still exists after 28 years, I understand the impulse to clean up the flotsam and jetsam of design. But I used to insist this was done only on major inflections, not fix releases. Or that there be a deprecation period.

[jscher2000]

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@mckyj57 wrote:

It wasn't 113.0 that did this, it was 113.0.1. One might ask -- why pick a 0 to 0.1 transition to simply remove cruft?

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You are wrong. Firefox 113.0.1 was released on May 12, 2023 (Pacific Time). Complaints about broken userChrome.css rules began days earlier as soon as Firefox 113.0 was released:

• May 9, 2023 (Pacific Time): https://www.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/comments/13dfxh8/once_again_my_tabs_are_at_the_top_and_bookmarks..., https://support.mozilla.org/questions/1412886 
• May 10, 2023 (Pacific Time): https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/13dqkk7/oh_yuck_113_rearranged_my_layout/, https://support.mozilla.org/questions/1412971, https://support.mozilla.org/questions/1412961,
• Et cetera

[mckyj57]

Well, for me it worked with 113.0, but not with 113.0.1. I suspect it matters which version of the userChrome workarounds you were using. I know that I replaced mine with a version put out in April of 2022, and it started working again and is as I type running 113.0.1.

[Kenithekid]

Didn't affect me here until 113.0.01

[Kenithekid]

Sadly, none of these edits seem to change anything for me. All was fine until the .1 update.

I changed the two lines as suggested.

I altered the two lines as some reported needing.

Not a blink of a change here!

[Anonymous]

So, jscher2000, who is FF trying to standardize with? Microsoft Edge, Mac whatever OS? A simple replacement of the menu option to put the Tabs in a more logical (kinda computer-like, huh?) position instead of way up at the top is all we are asking for!

We obviously like being able to customize the things we use.  I am considering reverting back to an older laptop running Linux! Hopefully that version of FF hasn't been "standardized".

[jscher2000]

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@Anonymous wrote:

So, jscher2000, who is FF trying to standardize with? Microsoft Edge, Mac whatever OS? A simple replacement of the menu option to put the Tabs in a more logical (kinda computer-like, huh?) position instead of way up at the top is all we are asking for!

We obviously like being able to customize the things we use.  I am considering reverting back to an older laptop running Linux! Hopefully that version of FF hasn't been "standardized".

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The UI original was written in a derivative of XML called XUL (eXtensible User interface Language) with proprietary style properties. The UI is being converted to standard HTML and CSS. This is taking a long time. if it had been done in one fell swoop when Firefox 57 was released, that would have been ideal, but considering it has take another more than 5 years, I think that was impossible.

Tabs were moved to the top in Firefox 4, so that decision was made before either Chrome or Edge were released. There is no version of Firefox after Firefox 28 that has a built-in option to switch the tab bar position. You will need to update your userChrome.css rules from time to time when the UI code changes.

[mckyj57]

If it always comes down to updating userChrome.css, and this has played out many times, it seems that it should be easy to just change your include rules to check a config setting and include the appropriate snippets should someone want to have their tabs on the bottom.

Or have the problems been so widespread that multitudinous uses of userChrome are present and this one doesn't stand out? If that is so, then problems are far worse than I thought.

[Kenithekid]

Fabulous! Once upon a time it was a simple checkbox choice within Firefox. We've now been complaining about it's removal for years chasing ways to get it back. Why won't the team simply add the option back to the brogram and avoid this issue for so many?

I now have to learn how to program css files to edit the one I have to make this work? That's a lot to demand of users!

[StopBreakingUX]

You are correct, since version 28 we have had to work around this missing feature. And with every few releases, the HACK/WORK AROUND gets broken... all we want is a feature that has been removed for years... and everyone has been asking for this feature back, all the while copying code from some website to fix the missing feature.

It was simple,

Address bar on top boolean, 0 or 1

now, it's some "code" that nobody knows, but simply guesses what works or has tools that find the stuff. Most of us are not programmers, we just want a simple option. Searching thru 80 some odd posts just to find the right code is not what made firefox great back in versions prior to 28.

[mckyj57]

I have been a Firefox user since there was one. And Mozilla before that, and Netscape before that....in other words, since 1993.

It seems like I have been battling some power-hungry developer's preference for putting the tab selector on the top for over a decade. (How long have tabs been there?) I move them below the bookmarks and controls, and eventually, he moves them again.

Now someone has gone and done this *again*. But on the transition to 113.0.1 from 113.0? That seems doubly random.

One would think that a simple button preference would have been implemented years ago, but NO. The answer is always NO.

I even tried once giving up and keeping them on the top. But it drives me crazy.

[mckyj57]

I just updated userChrome.css with the latest tabs_on_bottom workaround and it is back.

As a longtime open-source author myself, I know that if it breaks, I get to keep both parts. I am not owed a darn thing. But it is not a good lock to repeatedly break the same thing without eventually providing a fix. After at least 5 years of this, one would think that a preference could be initiated.

[Kenithekid]

I see so many others managing to fix this. I have tried using the same changes here but nothing I do seems to move the tabs back to the bottom.

What could be so different on my system as to stop the css from functioning the same way?

To minimize such, I even went so far as to return all graphics settings on the machine to the original defaults and still the problem persists.

It was working fine here with userChrome.css for a reasonaly long time. It's really uncomfortable that it's removed again.

Any ideas what else may be restricting the action here would be greatly appreciated...

[jscher2000]

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@Kenithekid wrote:

I see so many others managing to fix this. I have tried using the same changes here but nothing I do seems to move the tabs back to the bottom.

What could be so different on my system as to stop the css from functioning the same way?

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First, do any of your userChrome.css rules work for you? If no rules in userChrome.css are working, please double-check the setup steps (about:config change, proper folder location, etc.): https://www.userchrome.org/how-create-userchrome-css.html

Second, whose rules are you using for tabs? I think the two most popular repositories are MrOtherGuy (https://github.com/MrOtherGuy/firefox-csshacks/) and Aris (https://github.com/Aris-t2/CustomCSSforFx). These might not mix and match well.

[BalloonPark]

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@mckyj57 wrote:

Now someone has gone and done this *again*. But on the transition to 113.0.1 from 113.0? That seems doubly random.

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It certainly seems intentional, please see my other post on this. https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/with-version-113-0-1-the-tab-bar-is-back-at-the-top-where...

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@mckyj57 wrote:
I just updated userChrome.css with the latest tabs_on_bottom workaround and it is back.

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Can you provide a link to the workaround?

[mckyj57]

This is the one that worked for me:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/MrOtherGuy/firefox-csshacks/master/chrome/tabs_on_bottom.css

[Notsmiling]

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@mckyj57 wrote:

This is the one that worked for me:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/MrOtherGuy/firefox-csshacks/master/chrome/tabs_on_bottom.css

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Many, many thanks. This worked for me as well.  😃

[Kenithekid]

Why doesn't it work here???

[wpkaz]

This worked for me but it also put the menu bar below the bookmark bar. How can I get the menu bar back above the bookmark bar?

[jscher2000]

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@wpkaz wrote:

This worked for me but it also put the menu bar below the bookmark bar. How can I get the menu bar back above the bookmark bar?

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You can add this one AFTER tabs_on_bottom.css (it builds on that file):

https://github.com/MrOtherGuy/firefox-csshacks/blob/master/chrome/tabs_on_bottom_menubar_on_top_patc...

[wpkaz]

PERFECT! This is what my Firefox looked like before ver. 113. Thank you jscher2000.

[dlowell21]

Awesome!! Many thanks for your helpful links and clear instructions.

[mckyj57]

Never occurred to me -- I haven't used a menu bar in decades. 🙂

[jscher2000]

For the past five years, the UI has been gradually shedding proprietary CSS properties and moving toward standard CSS. If this had all been completed in one step, it certainly would have been easier for userChrome.css users, but that's not how it went and they're not done with the changes yet. Fortunately, the CSS wizards who maintain the large repositories are keeping on top of these changes as they are discovered in pre-release versions. r/FirefoxCSS is a great resource:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/

[xode]

I did a clean install of Firefox 114.0 and the tabs are clunky rectangles.  Without having to wade through endless irrelevant data, what specific instructions do I need to add to userChrome.css to again make the top of the tabs rounded off?

[Bockeman]

There are two issues here:

1. Firefox keeps changing [aka improving] the product and user interface.  Users build habits around a UI and unless there is an obvious advantage, users will prefer to stick with what they are familiar wtih.  There should always be a user option to keep/revert to a particular UI so that user productivity is maintained or not interrupted.  User feedback should be an indication of where any changes are not viewed kindly.  When a user is forced to learn to use a new UI, then they might as well switch to a competitor browser.
2. The UI changes are internally inconsistent or have an overall retrograte impact. It is this aspect upon which I wish to focus.

Browswer Tabs are metaphorically like physical protrusions up from each folder/divider in a drawer of folders or letter indents cut into the pages of a dictionary.  Admitedly, these metaphors are rapidly being consigned to history.  But the concept is clear, when a tab is selected, everthing inside/behind/underneath that tab pertains to that tab.  Other things, like the metaphorical handle on the drawer, the cabinet, the lock, remain constant regardless of which tab is selected, and are therefore outside/infront/above the tab or tab selection.

It is my argument that the FF113 position of the Tab bar is inconsistent and not compatible with the common notion of what a tab signifies.

The current FF113 tab order is:

1. Title Bar
2. Menu Bar
3. Tab Toolbar
4. URLBar along with back, forward reload, zoom etc.
5. Bookmarks/Personal Toolbar
6. Page content

The Bookmarks/Personal Toolbar is in the wrong place. It is static with respect to Tab selection and therefore should appear above the Tab Toolbar.

What I really want is a logical order for all the bars at the top, whether that is correct by default or there is a custom way of adjusting, and whether or not specific bars are hidden, auto enabled, or permenantly visible.

For me, this logical order is to have the most fixed at the top, descending to the most frequently changed, and finally below all the bars, the page content which could be dynamically changing. What I am specifically after is the PersonalToolbar (aka bookmark toolbar) immediately below the menubar, because, in my mind, the bookmarks are like an extension to the menubar, they are shortcuts to achieve in one click what could be acheived by several clicks/drags via the menubar.

My logical order, by example is:

1. Title Bar
2. Menu Bar
3. Bookmark Bar
4. Any other personal or custom bar (this and all above remain static as different tabs are selected)
5. Tab bar
6. URL bar (because that changes according to tab selection) [along with back, forward reload, zoom etc.]
7. page content

I would argue that this should be the default order taking into account which bars are selected/enabled.  A different order might be offered as a custom selection (or via userChrome.css, etc.) with the understanding that this might not be optimal, as fully tested, and other arguments I have seen regarding bar positioning.

[mckyj57]

Since the URL bar shares a level with the icons/buttons, which do not change per-tab, I prefer that it be above the TAB bar. It changes with the Tab change anyway, and there is no logical difference to overall content even if it was below the TAB bar.

[Bockeman]

Yep, there is some logic in that.  But the URL bar contains different elements:

1. Buttons for back, forward, refresh, then the URL, all of which relate to the current tab (and therefore should be below the tab bar).
2. Other elements on the right side: buttons for extensions, application menu which are static and should be above the tab bar.

Since the name of the bar is the URL bar, then logically for consistency, that should be below the tab bar.  If the other static buttons could be moved somewhere above the tab bar, that would be ideal, but I did not want to discract from the main issue.

Nonetheless, your user preference is valid and you should still be able to get that (but it falls under the first issue I identified and is really outside the scope of what I wanted to put forward).

[Bockeman]

@mckyj57I thought about this overnight and have actually come round to thinking that:

1. Title Bar
2. Menu Bar
3. Bookmark Bar
4. Any other personal or custom bar (this and all above remain static as different tabs are selected)
5. URL bar (because that changes according to tab selection) [along with back, forward reload, zoom etc.]
6. Tab bar
7. page content

is indeed a very reasonable ordering, even preferable for aesthetic reasons.
The tab bar has a different background colour. When it is just above the page content it provides a much better delineation between the controls and bars and the page content. The URL bar, having the same background as the page content makes it look like part of the page content.

[Kenithekid]

I'm with you here!

I was rudely surprised by this with the update this morning. The fact that they removed the function from the program was itself rude. Then updating to changes that stopped 3rd party work arounds for it. Niow the constant battle to keep these setting. They really don't want those tabs where we prefer them! Very sad...

Maybe one of the reasons the news continues to tell us that firefox is losing market share...? They're not paying attention!

Adamant companies translates to business loss. Look at what Waves just did to themselves!

[pweeks]

I am convinced that this is a team of morons that refuses to listen to its users.  Absolutely unbelievable.  Every time I update, I spend more time than I should have to trying to correct crap that they are shoving down our throats.  I am so frustrated with this mess and ready to bail after being a faithful user for decades.

Sure, this is absolutely a (relatively) quick fix for the team, but a deliberate and conscious decision to alienate their core users.  The attraction to Firefox is the users' ability to modify.  Once that is removed, there is no longer any point in using the browser.  Firefox has slipped from 4.21% (Feb. 2022) to 2.93% (Feb. 2023) user share, and continues to decline, perhaps out of existence, with Google Chrome taking the lion's share of use (66.76% Feb. 2023).  While core users continue to support Firefox, its developers have not just abandoned us, but have deliberately thwarted our efforts to be productive on our own terms.  I fear for the relevance and continued existence of Firefox under the current circumstances.  Listening to your users is KEY to being successful.  That is not happening here.

Come on guy.  FIX THIS!

TABS ON BOTTOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW:  I rolled back to the previous version so that my userChrome.css will work properly.  So, then, we are placed in the uncomfortable position of either not being able to update, or not being able to work productively.  Hum . . .

[Anonymous]

Well, I used the CSS files recommended by jscher2000 and am semi-happy with the results. Happy that it worked, but dismayed by having to fight to get this simple thing fixed.