topic Re: An Update on our Terms of Use in Discussions

An Update on our Terms of Use

AshleyT — Fri, 28 Feb 2025 23:35:55 GMT

On Wednesday we shared that we’re introducing a new Terms of Use (TOU) and Privacy Notice for Firefox. Since then, we’ve been listening to some of our community’s concerns with parts of the TOU, specifically about licensing. Our intent was just to be as clear as possible about how we make Firefox work, but in doing so we also created some confusion and concern. With that in mind, we’re updating the language to more clearly reflect the limited scope of how Mozilla interacts with user data.

Here’s what the new language will say:

You give Mozilla the rights necessary to operate Firefox. This includes processing your data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice. It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content.

In addition, we’ve removed the reference to the Acceptable Use Policy because it seems to be causing more confusion than clarity.

Privacy FAQ

We also updated our Privacy FAQ to better address legal minutia around terms like “sells.” While we’re not reverting the FAQ, we want to provide more detail about why we made the change in the first place. Check out the full blog post to read more.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

LSD123 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:20:51 GMT

Thought you didn't sell our data and NEVER will? Been using Firefox for 15+ years. Never using it again.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:21:15 GMT

"It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content. "
Sorry, but this wording means that you will get the right to sell t-shirts with my artwork if I send artwork using Firefox. You will not get ownership of my drawing, but you will get a license to use it in any way, i.e. you can print it on mugs, t-shirts, make posters, etc.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

firebird — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:29:16 GMT

Overall the language is much better. For the purpose of doing as you request is much clearer and more reassuring language.

It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox.

Is this limited to a few key areas like Search Suggestions and New Tab? It would be good to enumerate every use of our information instead of providing a blanket license to use any of it. The new version mostly seems to say this, but it would be good for it to use the word "only".

A short bullet-point summary of all the data usage Mozilla gives itself rights to conduct from the privacy policy would also be great, as the privacy policy is a lot to read.

I guess this section would actually be pretty similar to that bullet point list? https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/#lawful-bases

(To other commenters, please avoid personally attacking employees at Mozilla.)

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:36:55 GMT

I think if you had trusted the community and honestly said that you were faced with the choice between going bankrupt and launching your own ad service, the community might have supported you.

Instead of forcing the community, you could have given the community a choice, like you give the community a choice with statistics collection. When update, there will be a window with a choice of two options:
1. I want to support Mozilla, so please enable Mozilla's ad service.
2. Do not enable Mozilla's ad service. I am not going to support Mozilla in this way.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Deadoon — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:39:10 GMT

As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”

That doesn't seem all that different from a layman's comprehension of selling data to me.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

yolo1 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:39:39 GMT

You clearly hide something about the new IA features.
Please put this in a plugin first before deploying these features. If your plugin becomes popular, integrate it into your core software. Stop using your core userbase to capitalize on it.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Xerxes01 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:40:57 GMT

Are Mozilla's leaders possibly alienating their long-standing, privacy-conscious users with these questionable decisions?

I'm telling you if Firefox doesn't revert to its old, user-respecting TOS, they're practically begging for its downfall!

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

joeyh — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:42:19 GMT

Will Mozilla be firing the incompetent managers and lawyers who drafted the overly broad and badly written original version?

Or was this a precalculated maneuver, leading with the overly broad land grab and backpedaling right to where you wanted to be all along?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

tpdi — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:46:38 GMT

In every communication about this, you've been careful to include the parenthetical qualification '(in the way that most people think about “selling data”)'

> TL;DR Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data”), and we don’t buy data about you.

When I see something repeated verbatim in *every* communication, I assume that's because a lawyer has said "it's essential that you always include this."

And it's weaselly. "In the way that most people think" is subjective and doesn't actually specify what that thinking is.

It also implies that even if "most people" don't consider it selling data, *some people* do consider it selling data.

So, in other words, 'Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data”)' can be and probably should be interpreted as a cleverly obscurantist way to say "Mozilla does sell data about you (just not in the way that most people think about 'selling data')."

My guess is a lawyer has told you to always make sure you phrase it in this way, in order to publicly appear to say "we don't sell users' data" while in fact *not*, technically, claiming that you don't sell user data.

So who came up with the qualification "(in the way that most people think about 'selling data')"?

And were you, Ashley, instructed to always include that qualification?

What's *not* included in "the way most people think about 'selling data'"?

And of those not included ways, which ways are Mozilla reserving the right to sell our data?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

user9164967254 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 00:48:45 GMT

This response is wholly inadequate. Although some of the points of https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/information-about-the-new-terms-of-use-and-updated-privacy/m-p/88011/highlight/true#M33769 have been addressed, many have not. Also, there are now even more issues with the new post:

The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”

That is just about exactly how I would define "sharing data".

In order to make Firefox commercially viable, there are a number of places where we collect and share some data with our partners, including our optional ads on New Tab and providing sponsored suggestions in the search bar.

So you are saying you have been violating your promise for a long time now. Uhhhh, thanks for bringing it to my attention?

Whenever we share data with our partners, we put a lot of work into making sure that the data that we share is stripped of potentially identifying information, or shared only in the aggregate, or is put through our privacy preserving technologies (like OHTTP).

Cool. Still violates your previous promise. Being less evil than Google does not absolve Mozilla of all wrongdoing.

I've been daily driving Firefox since I was a young child, but it's time for me to hop out of the pot.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

tpdi — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 02:04:32 GMT

From <s>Dan Brown's</s> Ajit Varmas's blog post:

> The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”

So, the Mozilla Foundation, founded in California, and the Mozilla Corporation, headquartered in California, intend to do things that under California law are considered to be the sale of data, as passed by a majority of the California Assembly and signed by the California governor into law, but Mozilla wants to pretend those things are not a sale of data?

As Abe Lincoln asked, how many legs does a dog have, if I call its tail a leg?

Mozilla, a California corporation, doesn't get to redefine California law to hide inconvenient truths.

Just admit it: "we intend to do things that under California law constitute the sale of users' data. But under the laws of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, those things are totally not the sale of user data, so we're completely in the clear, trust us!"

Some super-clever Wharton School MBA came up with this, right?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

i430VX — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 01:13:35 GMT

I am happy to see some things resolved in this clarification. However, I am in agreement with Firebird above (and presumably others) that it would be nice to see a more solid, exhaustive list (to the extent possible) of what is meant by the license part. The wording "as you request" is still, in my layperson's eyes, still somewhat too much open to interpretation to make me feel comfortable about it.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

EmmanuelMess — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 01:13:40 GMT

From the blog entry:

> Firefox also shows its own search suggestions based on information stored on your local device (including recent search terms, open tabs, and previously visited URLs). These suggestions may include sponsored suggestions from Mozilla’s partners, relevant content from common internet resources (such as Wikipedia), or relevant URLs that are popular in your country. Mozilla processes certain technical and interaction data, such as how many searches you perform, how many sponsored suggestions you see and whether you interact with them. Mozilla's partners receive de-identified information about interactions with the suggestions they've served. You can enable or disable Search suggestions at any time.

There is a problem with this wording, it implies that even when the seach suggestions are disabled, the data can be shared with Mozilla or 3rd parties. I don't think this would be acceptable. I would recommend a blanket "all data sharing with 3rd parties can be disabled".

Also here:

> Learn more about how we categorize searches, including how to opt out.

I don't want to opt out of the feature per-se, I would want to opt out of the *data sharing* and *large scale mining*.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

wwahammy — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 01:35:20 GMT

I'll copy in what I sent to the Mozilla Foundation folks when they asked me for a donation:

Please pass this along to your board members and your executive director. Seriously. Please.

I've been a Mozilla user and Firefox advocate for a decade plus. I've donated to the Foundation. I've advocated for Common Voice and encouraged people to contribute to it. I stuck with and supported you all no matter what.

After your fully owned subsidiary's Terms of Use fiasco this week, it's insulting to ask me to donate. The lack of any sort of consideration of your customers and users and donors is just astounding. After all of this, I'm done with Mozilla Corporation, Foundation, etc, etc. I'm leaving Firefox, I'm writing off the foundation and want nothing to do with with you. I can't figure out why every member of your organization continually despises your constitutents but I'll help you out, I won't be a user, I won't be donor and I will ignore Mozilla's very existence.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 01:43:50 GMT

The definition of "selling data" under the "CCPA" which is referenced absolutely is what I would consider selling data.

They may tweek this or that in these terms, that privacy policy could belong to any for profit company that harvests people's data for money. It clearly states they are using our data to serve up targeted ads. These are basically Mozilla's documents of surrender to surveillance capitalism.

Also all my previous comments that they would still need to turn over any data they collect in response to "Lawful Requests" still stands (and that doesn't meant the ones making such requests would necessarily be "the good guys" from our point of view). My concerns about how this makes Firefox unsuitable for individuals who are serious about privacy still stand.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

SirWolf — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 03:44:44 GMT

You want to train our data for AI, that's what you're doing. No matter how you formulate it, the overall message is the same. No matter why you're "stealing" our data, it's disgusting. A browser is our entry point to accessing the Internet, not your entry point to legalized spyware. The Firefox days are over. Stop deceiving us, it's not gonna work.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Serg1 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 04:16:44 GMT

I am not convinced, at all - it still sounds vague, unintuitive and unnecessary. I chose FF exactly because of "Nope, never, under no circumstances for no intents or purposes we do not collect, store, process on the fly, pass or use your data, other than to serve your explicit request, for example show you the web page you accessed or autofill the email address you asked us to save. Period."

This is what I want to see, so there would be no place for any shenanigans like 'partners', 'analytics', 'recommendations', 'ai training' and other BS.
Please make it right, and make it right right now, otherwise I personally will be looking for another browser, even though I hate the idea, but what choice do you leave me...

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

IloveFirefox — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 04:17:38 GMT

Mozilla did not need my data before. Mozilla doesn't need it now. Nor will it ever.
My data is between ME and the WEBSITE I CHOOSE TO VISIT. Not the browser.
Privacy Preserving Advertising is a delusional solution at best.

Mozilla better correct course immediately. Otherwise enjoy your downfall. You certainly earned it.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

soleniae — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 05:03:40 GMT

this is heinous.

i've been an avid proponent for the mozilla ecosystem - not agreeing with all actions and positions but broadly firmly in support of the mission and in growing its userbase.

mozilla no longer adheres to that original mission and is further attempting to be dishonest about it. given that it's now lost my trust i'll instead actively advocate for moving away from mozilla, in the interest of protecting the privacy of those around me.

the lifeblood of your products and services was the avid community of privacy-minded folks on the ground providing grassroots support for the mission you emblazoned on your flag. with the mission gone there's no reason to rally around.

despicable.

(ps: yes, i did just spend half an hour hunting for any sort of method to contact mozilla about this. for all the time and energy i've spent on mozilla over the years, it was worth conveying my absolute disgust at this betrayal of purpose.)

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

adsonly — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 06:07:07 GMT

This includes processing your data [...]with the content you input in Firefox.

No, no, no!

You shouldn't collect any data in the first place!

And if you do so, it must be an opt in! It must be clear for the user what this data is and that there are no privacy concerns at all. The wording with "browsing data" and "unique identifiers" doesn't help at all. Mozilla should not collect and store "search suggestions" or similar userdata and share it with other companies. And when there is an opt in for that, ist must be clear that this data will be anonymized on client side and deleted after closing Firefox.

Your post makes this even worse, because it makes clear, that you do not understand your user base!

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

CAust — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 06:43:15 GMT

I think your proposed improved statement is not right either. I suspect that lawyers have gotten the better of Firefox management on possible future liabilities that are not likely going to occur.

You need to be much more specific with your language and clarify the "data use boundaries" here. This is going to damage Firefox if not promptly addressed and effectively made clear.

Get some user help or professional help on getting the language right. If you are going to sell data to survive, or you are under State level pressures, state it publicly. Be clear and open. The ambivalence of interpretation and intent is far more contagious and damaging.

Long term user of Firefox (decade+). Great browser. The best over this time.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

FredJupiter — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 08:24:55 GMT

There is a general and fundamental misunderstanding on the side of Mozilla Corp. and Mozilla.org. I cannot give you a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license on the content I enter or transfer by using software made by Mozilla in all cases in which I don't have these rights myself, e.g. when I transfer or enter other peoples' or companies' data on their behalf.

And, by the way, why do you want these rights anyway?

"nonexclusive": It's not just a license to the Mozilla organizations but can be sold to third parties.

"royalty-free": I don't get any money and in the event of a legal dispute, the court fees are lower.

"worldwide": You can transfer the data wherever you want. There's an obvious conflict with EU's GDPR.

Sorry, the wording is still hilariously sloppy and the regulation is inacceptable.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

LeonDerBaertige — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 08:12:57 GMT

This is better but I still don't understand why mozilla needs a license to use all my inputs when I use firefox locally on my computer. For some additional services (which have their own terms anyway)? Sure I can see that might be neccessary, but just using firefox?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

jdmarble — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 08:16:18 GMT

I want to know that the company that provides my browser does not take the information I put into it and sell it. Your update is telling me, in a very slimy way, that you are, in fact, selling the data that I enter into the browser. This is not due to my “confusion”. If you honestly think that it is you that is confused.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

eschatos — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:11:00 GMT

You didn't address most points, such as:
* Why are you trying to sneak a contract past your users without informed consent?
* Why do you want to use continued use as implicit consent to changes, a practice that is illegal in many parts of the world?
* Why do you need a license to data that never gets uploaded to your servers? I have never heard of software needing a license to all my inputs when it doesn't leave the device. Why is my data leaving the device for basic functionality?
* Why did you previously attempt to get a more-or-less blanket license using vague purposes such as "navigating", "interacting with" and "experiencing" the web "as indicated by our use of Firefox"?
* Why were you trying to ban content that includes graphic depictions of sexuality or violence (which includes, but is not limited to, pornography, movies, TV shows) with your Acceptable Use policy which you tied to the ToS?
* Why were you trying to disallow people the sale of legal but controlled products or services based on your Acceptable Use policy?
* How can you ensure the data you're selling is actually anonymized? The last decades should have shown every somewhat informed person that it can be very easy to deanonymize supposedly anonymous data. Why should we trust you here?
* For the love of god, why have you been so intentionally obtuse and downright offensive up to this point? Oh, people are confused about what you're doing and that's why you had to change the part about licensing to be less vague and remove the Acceptable Use part? We're just all so **bleep**ing stupid and you're geniuses that so respect us and our privacy, I get it. Answer the actual questions, instead of cherry-picking individual points and slightly correcting course while pretending to be these misunderstood angels. **bleep**ing hell.

I'm willing to give you one more opportunity to answer these questions and correct course. If you still fail to take any of this seriously, I will be permanently gone and I'm sure I won't be alone. Also, if this message gets deleted again "as spam", I will take the hint, uninstall all Mozilla products right away and instruct everyone around me to do the same.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

eschatos — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:11:19 GMT

I'm pretty sure that nonexclusive just means that Mozilla isn't the only company that can have a license, not that they can sell it. However, they sneakily do not mention "nontransferable" which I didn't notice at first. As such, they can indeed sell the license to our data. Royalty-free just means that they don't need to pay to use your data.

They also restrict the license to a specific use which is now a lot less vague. They should also restrict it to being used on-device and "as you request" is still a loophole for them. As I request how? What does my request look like? If they actually cared about transparency, they would not try to give us these bull**bleep** non-legally-binding answers and just explain the precise legal reasoning, so that even those among us that don't happen to know international law can follow.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

FredJupiter — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 09:14:10 GMT

The thinkable use cases don't heal the impossibilities or law conflicts.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

pg_78 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 12:44:22 GMT

OK, being positive, that paragraph from the Terms of Use is better than it was, and it's good to see some movement in response to feedback. Thank you.

This sentence is still too vague IMO:

It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox.

"Doing as you request" isn't clear enough here. It's not clear what you purposes you think the data is licensed for.

Particularly, the text doesn't make a clear distinction between using Firefox (the application), and using Mozilla services. The only thing that should require a license is the use of Mozilla services (I accept those could be embedded in the browser in the form of features like Search Suggestions).

Simply using the browser, without Mozilla services, should not require a license.

As an analogy, suppose that I buy a bicycle. Does the manufacturer require me to sign terms of use stating that "you grant us a license for the purpose of rotating the wheels when you push the pedals"? Of course not, everyone can see that's absurd.

Now, if the manufacturer also offers a service where I can enable a location tracking device embedded in the frame of the bike, and submit data about my rides to later view in an app - sure, that requires a license and I'd expect to have to agree to the terms of that service.

You might say "but software isn't the same as a bike". Fair point. But does the calculator app in my OS need me to grant it a license to my numerical data "for the purpose of performing arithmetic"? Obviously not.

Similarly, using the browser without interacting with Mozilla services doesn't require a license, and the terms should be made clearer about that.

It's in Mozilla's interests to get this right too. In many jurisdictions, a consumer-facing contract that is overly vague and ambiguous will simply be struck down by a court and rendered null and void. You don't want that, presumably.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Cvh-123 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:58:30 GMT

“It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox” is better, but this being there is still worrying. Nothing inputed through the browser should be seen by Mozilla, therefore no license is needed. You need to clarify what is seen by Mozilla that requires such a broad license.
Stop fussing around and just be ‘honest and transparent’ by adjusting the terms to say “yes, we do sell your data”, and make it clear how when and whether that’s by opt in and if you can opt out.
At least acceptable use has gone.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

ildella — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:28:10 GMT

And there will always be the problem of these lines removed:
https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e#diff-a24e74e4595fa85440a2f4e7e5dcfe68aba6e1e593aef05a2d35581a91423847

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

pg_78 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:33:26 GMT

Regarding the Privacy FAQ - please recognise that we aren't just talking about "legal minutiae" here.

When Mozilla dismisses the concerns as "minutiae", it sounds like your view is that "nobody would ever object to their data being sold to advertisers, as long as the data is anonymized and aggregated".

But I do object to that! It's not just about privacy! Even when it doesn't use personal data, online advertising steals our attention and makes the web cringe and corporate. I don't want to be complicit in anything that helps the online advertising economy.

Just like if the city wanted to put a giant neon sign on every street corner in my neighborhood, I'd strongly object to that, and it wouldn't change my mind if you told me "but these neon signs don't use your identifiable data, and you aren't paying for the electricity".

Concretely, what I really want to see in the Privacy Notice is a very clear statement of how I can ensure that none of my data is shared with third parties - regardless of anonymization or aggregation. If I disable the New Tab page, and Search Suggestions, is that enough? I hope so - I even think so - but really I'd need this to be stated in black and white.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

pg_78 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:40:10 GMT

Somehow, the starkness of seeing that in git diff format just makes me really sad for what Mozilla used to be and what the web used to be.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

v127 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 11:30:17 GMT

We are so done, goodbye.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

manfredland — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 12:24:11 GMT

Extremely vague wording "clarified" with slightly less vague wording.

Well done. *claps slowly*

Over the last few years Firefox distanced itself more and more from their core job of being a freaking web browser. After using Firefox since it was still called "Firebird" more than 20 years ago I'm currently removing all Firefox installations of my familys computers, personal devices and where possible work devices and advise everyone to do the same.

This was the last straw after years of questionable things.
Remember still the "Cliqz" story?
That crappy Pocket stuff?
Introducing telemetry you have to opt-out?
The "Mr Robot" addon they secretly installed on computers 2017?
Privacy Preserving Attribution (PPA) ? (what a joke)

Quick workaround is Librewolf, still pondering about the long term solution.

At least Google does not lie us in the face about selling our data.

And yes, I registered just to tell you to gtfo of my face.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Siph — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 13:24:08 GMT

I want to echo some of the expressed sentiments on here.

Quoting from the blog post:

The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”

This definition of "selling data" is sufficiently broad and perfectly outline what most people would think of as "sale of data". All the things outlined in this definition is indeed things I do not want Firefox to do with my personal data, no caveats or exceptions. It’s a hard requirement for any company that claims to guarantee "privacy".

Why are you trying to find loopholes about these kinds of regulations that you claim to be a long-time supporter of? Don’t you realize how hypocritical that sounds?

Corporate PR is so exhausting, I wish it were in your financial interest to be honest with us about the goals and philosophies of Mozilla’s leadership. We all know these forum and blog posts are not legally binding, and only what’s in the TOS is, and when the time for litigation comes, you will defend yourself with it no matter what.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

smb8 — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 13:20:18 GMT

"You know Firefox sells your data now, right?"

This is how this whole controversy is going to be summarized when people talk about Firefox.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 13:36:22 GMT

-You give Mozilla the rights necessary to operate Firefox. - It's the Terms of Use. You have to actually spell out which specific rights people give up when using the software. I don't know which corporate lawyer ever considered four sentences leaning on "the rights necessary to operate Firefox" as specific enough to hold up in court.

-This includes processing your data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice. - Now we're getting somewhere. Where the first line can be scrapped entirely, this actually spells out that Mozilla has the right to process our data as described in the Privacy Notice. This is boiler plate stuff, makes perfect sense to be in any TOS. The Privacy Notice itself includes some very disturbing sections about advertising, sponsored content and sharing data with third parties, but that's for another post.

-It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. - Terrible wording. Way too short, way too non-specific. This is shooting yourself in the foot for when these terms ever touch a courtroom. Worldwide, royalty-free and nonexclusive are at least in the right ball-park, that is how you would describe the kind of license that you seem to be aiming for. But you're missing about 90% of the needed specifiers for this to hold up. What content? For how long? Is it perpetual? Can it be revoked? What actions can Mozilla take with it? How does this intersect with local laws? How is legally restricted input handled? This is normally six paragraphs of legalese, for licensing digital content that is a lot less sensitive that what you're hitting here. A single-sentence claim to a license, for every single thing a user inputs, for a global digital service - this is legal insanity. Not to mention that "for the purpose" is the legal qualifier for stating why you initially want this license, and not what you would use to restrict your use for any purposes outside of it. Although the cynic in me is starting to think that you already know that.

-This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content. - Now that was already self-evident, nothing in these terms even hints at claiming ownership. So I assume that this is meant to catch legal laypeople, who may be been misinterpreting the sentences before it as a claim to ownership. Turning down the legalese, going back to regular English to clear something up for regular users. Which I would normally commend, but guess what - there is confusion about the legalese, because the legalese doesn't do what is required. Get this sentence out of there, fix the actual section before it. This is not just unclear to laypeople. This is too unclear to function as terms of service.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Llammissar — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 13:43:56 GMT

Okay, so the promise about Firefox never selling my personal data is going back into the FAQ, right?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

spipau — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 14:26:45 GMT

I am a Firefox user and promoter since 15 years and I just installed an alternative for the first time. You finally lost track of your mission and you will go down if you go through with this. A sad day for privacy…

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

FredJupiter — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 14:57:23 GMT

Apparently, the Mozilla organizations came to the conclusion that these data policy changes were minor and could easily fly under the radar. Our companies' will remove Firefox completely by March 15th from each and every workstation if the change is not revoked. Thanks to AshleyT to at least reporting the violation.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

thisisausername — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 16:21:59 GMT

Switched to LibreWolf, Staying there for the future! FOREVER

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Esna — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 17:07:27 GMT

I mean, if even ILoveFirefox says so.

Big applause that you can make a turn so bad that all your diehard users are running away as fast as they can.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 17:38:38 GMT

Mozilla is seeing a spike in Firefox usage right now, as users migrate their data, and Mozilla thinks, "Wow, this is the Streisand effect, we did something stupid, and we've got more users!!!"

And when a Mozilla employee goes to his boss and says, "Can we explain the legal language?", the boss replies, "Are you crazy? We've got more Firefox usage now, we need even more vague legal language and even more sales of user data!!!"

In a few weeks, users will migrate their data, and Firefox usage will start to decline. If this decline is rapid, for example, reaching 10%, Mozilla will start explaining the legal language, trying to prevent the decline. However, this will not do much, because a person who has completely switched to a new browser uses a new browser and does not need to return to Firefox. Especially in the context of Mozilla continuing to lie and not admitting to selling user data to third parties.

I also think Mozilla will call the sale of user data some phrase that managers have invented, such as "privacy assurance". For example, selling data to Facebook will be called "privacy assurance with Facebook". And selling data to Microsoft will be called "privacy assurance with Microsoft". And in some time Mozilla will publish a big article on the blog called "Mozilla Know-How: Privacy Assurance in Working with Partners". The article will tell how Mozilla increased the management apparatus by 83%, and how this management apparatus contributed to an increase in privacy by 38% in the process of "privacy assurance" in working with partners.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

tetryonx — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 18:23:02 GMT

Unfortunately, I am in the process of uninstalling Firefox and migrating my household due to these changes. Whoever decided these changes should be let go because they clearly didn't think of the ramifications of removing a privacy guarantee with a loud and vocal community.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Syntaxerror — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 18:56:45 GMT

Not good enough. The Californian definition of "selling data" is exactly and explicitly what I DO NOT WANT YOU TO DO.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

wildweasel — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 19:10:58 GMT

In my opinion, my browser should do only one thing with my data: if I request to send data, it should send the data. If I request to receive data, it should allow me to receive that data. The browser should not be using any of that data toward its own ends or the ends of the controlling interest behind that browser.

My words are my own. My images are my own. Under no circumstances do I permit my browser to attempt to interpret those words and images in order to, I don't know, show me news articles that it thinks are related. I disable nearly every "suggested" feature in Firefox for that reason. I am not interested in my Browser Experience being automatically tailored. I do not want a Browser Experience. I just want to Use Websites. If I want the browser to monitor me, I will specifically ask for that. Twenty years down the line from switching to Firefox in the first place, I have yet to ever ask for that.

Find some other way to monetize, please. This should not be tolerated.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

yomk — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 19:47:34 GMT

I am still confused and concerned. The new wording did not clarify things for me at all, but I seriously hope that this does NOT mean there will be any AI integration or using anything we do or post on Firefox.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

kungfujoe — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 20:13:33 GMT

This is an improvement, since the rights are only granted for the purposes of tailoring my experience in my browsers (and not for "making T-shirts of my art" as another commenter says) but it still raises some important questions, like

1 - Why is there no exception mentioned for private browser tabs/windows? They should not be used for personalization, so none of that information should be sent to Mozilla for ANY purpose. That's why they're... you know... private!

2 - Why is there no ability to opt out of this? Many people do not WANT personalized advertisements, personalized search suggestions, etc, and if they don't want those personalizations, there's no reason for anything they enter into their browser to be made available to Mozilla at all unless they're entering something into a site on a Mozilla server, like I am right now.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 22:18:40 GMT

This is an introduction to make it clear. You can skip to the "end of introduction" if you're lazy.

I'm an illustrator, and I make drawings for clients. Along with the contract, we sign a copyright transfer agreement, which discusses the limits within which I allow the use of my work. For example, the client says that he wants to use my drawing on advertising posters in Poland. Then I transfer the rights to the client to use the drawing for printed advertising in Poland for 5 years.

If I grant the client general rights, the client can sell the rights to my drawing to a T-shirt manufacturer, a mug manufacturer, and a cartoon manufacturer so that the cartoon manufacturer can use my characters in a cartoon.

That's why the copyright transfer agreement discusses:
— purpose of use;
— region of use;
— periods of use;
— the right to transfer or sell the rights to other persons.

I have my copy, and the client has his copy. If the customer breaches the agreement, I can sue the customer to recover my lost profits.

End of introduction.

What about the rights I transfer to Mozilla?
— purpose is defined in a separate document;
— region of use is worldwide;
— period of use is indefinite;
— right to transfer or sell rights to use to a third party — yes, I grant Mozilla the right to transfer or sell rights to use to a third party.

Mozilla states that the third party will use the data in accordance with the third party's agreement with Mozilla. Mozilla does not disclose the exact terms of the agreement, i.e. how the partners will use my data. By agreeing to transfer my data to Mozilla, I agree that Mozilla will determine in its sole discretion how the third party will use my data. Although the Privacy Policy limits Mozilla's ability to process my data, the Privacy Policy does not limit Mozilla's ability to grant rights to third parties.

The clauses that describe the purpose of using my data do not specify whether Mozilla will involve third parties or not. Since there is no prohibition and I have already given my consent to transfer to third parties, Mozilla can do this at its own discretion. For any purpose specified in the Privacy Policy, Mozilla can involve a third party and grant the third party rights to my data. The list of rights that Mozilla grants to third parties, as we know, is determined by Mozilla at its own discretion.

Look at the clause "To adapt Firefox to your needs". Under this clause, Mozilla can do anything it wants with all content that has passed through Firefox for the purpose of adaptation, including transferring content to third parties. For example, I wrote a computer game. The game was made in Unity and Visual Studio, and the git was a private git on github. However, before releasing it, I decided to download the git archive through Mozilla.

Mozilla does not have the right to release my game, I did not grant Mozilla such rights. However, I granted Mozilla the right to determine at its discretion the purpose for which my data is transferred to a third party. And, let me remind you, the Privacy Policy nowhere says that "content" is not transferred to a third party. That is, Mozilla can decide that "for the purpose of adapting Firefox" it is necessary to transfer the game code to a third party so that the third party can release this game. Of course, I can sue. But I myself granted Mozilla the right to transfer my data to third parties, and granted Mozilla the right to determine the purpose for which my data is transferred to third parties. That is, Mozilla says that "for the purpose of adapting Firefox, we granted a third party the rights to release the game," and that's it, Mozilla is innocent, and the third party is also innocent.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

TechHorse — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 23:28:21 GMT

"You give Mozilla the rights necessary to operate Firefox."

"a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox."

I am just wondering why Firefox needs such a license or rights all of a sudden?

I started using Firefox when its version numbers were still in single digits, and for around 20 years it has been doing as I request with the content I input into it without any issue without needing these rights / licenses?

I don't believe that Mozilla has any bad intensions here, I am just puzzled as to why someone decided that something that hasn't been needed up until now, suddenly is?

Like, I suspect, a lot of people, I would prefer not to have to enter into any 'contracts' or grant any rights that I don't need to, hence my query as to why the sudden requirement for this?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

hyperstown — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 23:36:19 GMT

The part about data selling MUST be brought back. If answer is no longer applicable then change it to something that represents current situation. That's what it means to be transparent.

Also why do you need a license to data all of the sudden? Firefox existed for so long without it. Safari doesn't have one. Does your legal team knows something that Apple folks don't?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

AccountForThis — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 23:42:22 GMT

No, we aren't doing this **bleep**. I will switch to chrome for better functionality if you are selling my data.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

AccountForThis — Sat, 01 Mar 2025 23:43:18 GMT

This, also put a donation target like wikipedia

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

whitewaterdave — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 01:28:54 GMT

You need to allow us to accept/deny the new terms of service prior to implementing the new terms.

I don't agree to the new terms of service. I signed the agreement when you didn't sell/share personal data. That hasn't changed.

I work for the government. I use Firefox at work and home. You do not have permission to sell any of my data. I will stop using Firefox. I will delete Firefox from all person and work devices.

You've joined the ranks of other services that don't care about its users.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

thisisausername — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 02:13:40 GMT

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
YOUR OWN PRINCIPLES:

Principle 4

Individuals’ security and privacy on the internet are fundamental and must not be treated as optional.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

thisisausername — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 02:22:12 GMT

That’s the only way to make amends, and then you will be bailing a ship with a hole in the hull! Just switch to LibreWolf, almost the same lol.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

whitewaterdave — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 02:36:17 GMT

That principle has been dropped according to everything I have read. I work in IT For the government. We use Firefox to access sensitive data on a daily basis. Our policy was to use Firefox because of privacy. It will no longer be our policy.

For most people, this is a personal issue. It is not a personal issue for me. Data will be sold and/or shared. To whom will data be shared and/or sold? They never say who it will be shared with. It is always third party. We are not given the names of who it is shared with and/or sold to. Would you hand your wallet to someone anonymous person on the street? I wouldn't.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

wwahammy — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 05:51:52 GMT

I just want to say to @AshleyT, you shouldn't have to be here handling this. You shouldn't have to put up with righteously angry people when it's Mozilla leadership.

They're selling you out like they're selling us out. Seriously, get some leadership folks on here, it's BS that they're not handling this.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Comrade — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 06:12:49 GMT

@AshleyT

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. I generally feel like the simplest answer is [probably] the correct answer. To that end this new ToU seems intentionally designed to destroy Firefox and the Mozilla Foundation more broadly for daring to protect users and not use them as profit fodder. Especially, when looking at the previous positions held by this "new executive team" that was recently announced.

As many others have stated in other discussions, you are only the messenger and none of the disapproval regarding the new ToU is aimed at you, specifically. Hope you're able to keep that in mind as this situation unfolds. You're a relatively new employee and I don't know what your history is as a Firefox user, but I strongly encourage you to get out while you still have your integrity and dignity.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Comrade — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 06:11:57 GMT

I feel like downfall is the point. One less pesky option in existence allowing people to escape commodification. The employment records of the executives now in charge all but screams this.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

baskin — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 06:55:33 GMT

You really only need to re-add the "never have, never will" and I would be back. It is as simple as saying you will not do it.

You either reserve the right to steal from users, or you promise to not do it, if you still want to steal, you can commit crimes like the rest of us mere mortals when we lose our morals, just dont reserve the right to commit them because non-companies are second rate citizens.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

kittyd — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 07:42:42 GMT

The deal was clear.

Mozilla has consistently taken user hostile actions in recent years on Firefox, and has had the benefit of good will to get through it. I among others tolerated it.

As was made clear, this recent destruction of principles was egregious beyond belief.

You had one choice, and only one chance. To completely revert the changes, issue a full and clear apology for the transgression, commit to being on the side of the users and developers first, and demonstrate this through action.

Any bs, any compromise, by now it was too late for it.

I guess in a way I'm happy to have such a clear conclusion to this. I will miss the Mozilla of old, and I will miss Firefox. It will never be a recommendation from me to any fellow developer, company, or friend or family. I'm on the hunt. Trying out Firefox-based as well as Chromium-based alternatives that deserve my trust.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

kittyd — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 07:45:39 GMT

Clarification: None of these words are meant for the messenger nor the developers who have worked tirelessly to make and keep Firefox the amazing piece of history it is. It is meant for the executives who have spat on what Mozilla stood for.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Vwan — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 08:00:39 GMT

I’ve been using and promoting Firefox for more than 20 years, but I guess now is a good time to find an alternative. It’s a shame that Firefox has turned away from its principles over the years.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Sphaela — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 08:20:19 GMT

"new language" is not good enough, it's still very much vague and raise more questions with the "nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license" part. FOSS users expect no BS like this. I hope mozilla rethink this decision and withdraw the TOU.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

CAust — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 12:30:37 GMT

Yes having similar thoughts.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

adddada — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 14:18:09 GMT

What happened guys? you used to be cool.I will stop using firefox Thanks for almost 20 years.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

jefg — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 15:15:43 GMT

How can Firefox be used in government or corporate settings? Are governments or companies really going to agree to license all content entered into the browser to Mozilla? Have you folks thought through the implications of the licensing clause of your TOS?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Anonymous — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 17:10:11 GMT

If the definition of selling data keeps changing then Mozilla needs to keep changing how they operate to continue to not sell our data. It's the only reason people had any trust in this company. Which is now forever tarnished.

The way this is being communicated is so corporate and soulless I have no reason to believe anything you say going forwards unless this is completely reversed. I will be moving people away from the official Firefox builds as much as I possibly can until this is completely reversed. I will never recommend products from Mozilla again.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

ScottyHereCapn — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 18:26:53 GMT

Nope. Still not good enough. I do not agree to give you a license for my data, period, much less an unlimited fiat on your part to transfer or sell it to other parties.

Again, this is dangerous for marginalized communities. It removes one of the few applications that doesn’t contribute to the surveillance state that the US is even now setting up to hunt these people down and imprison them, if not give them the Auschwitz treatment.

Even with aggressive anonymization, everyone leaves a trace, and any trace can be followed back to its source. Grammatical and syntactic choices, habitual words and phrases, any of this and more can be used to build a fingerprint and a profile on someone, which then can be fed to an AI crawler to scrape data looking for a match. I foresee a lot of false positives arising which puts innocents in the line of fire.

Perhaps I am doomsaying but guess what? I work in data resiliency and security, and I have seen this happen before.

Mozilla needs to reverse course on this, pronto.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Mozilla2Face — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 18:46:07 GMT

Moved to LibreWolf. Mozilla's name is mud!

Below is a link to the important files to transfer from Firefox to LibreWolf profile. Replace the .firefox with .librewolf for file paths.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profiles-where-firefox-stores-user-data

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

whitewaterdave — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 20:49:32 GMT

I would appreciate no further responses. I get an email every time I get a response. My inbox was flooded.

unless you understand my situations thoroughly, you have no reason to respond. Some of the responses are inappropriate. I will not be harassed by trolls.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

i430VX — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 21:14:04 GMT

They are not replying to you personally. Not even the trolls. You can manage your notifications (i.e. wholesale turn them on/off for the thread) using the "options" in the top right corner of the page (click that, then click "unsubscribe"). Alternatively, you can, at any point when you make a reply in the thread, click "additional options" below the compose window and uncheck "email me when someone replies".

Unfortunately this forum software, like many others, does not appear to support any further refinement of reply-notifications other than on for everything in the thread or fully off. Also doesn't provide clarity if the reply in question is a reply to main post or reply to a reply. Oh well.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

FlaringComet — Sun, 02 Mar 2025 22:49:03 GMT

I read this. In short, all of these things. First, Tell us WHY you're making these changes. As others have said, if it's financial, please set up a donation page similar to Wikipedia so we ourselves can help you directly rather than your having to turn to corporate revenue. If ads are part of the funding plan, we could turn off our blockers sometimes. However unless you explain why these changes are being implemented people aren't going to listen and work along with you;we need you to tell us what's going on.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

fJedi — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 02:41:56 GMT

The number of references removed/altered is quite sad. I was hoping to see improvements from the original but it's not improved.

"that doesn’t sell your personal data" expires at the end of April 2025. Same with "You don’t pay anything to use it, and we don’t sell your personal data." which becomes "You don’t pay anything to use it".

I was genuinely hoping for a U-turn, not a clarification of the path forwards. I don't like change and switching primary browsers was not on my agenda, like, ever. It may be if there are no massive changes to this before, apparently 25th April.

https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e#diff-756d5712016e5710874c0cbff395d8541dade83f84cfb8dd77644f5bb3c80710

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

MozillaUser86 — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 03:49:05 GMT

Ashley,

Thank you for providing clarity.
Could you please provide a detailed technical explanation of what exactly is being done to make terms like this necessary? And what are the fears of Mozilla by not including this in the terms?

Words can say one thing a million different ways, but the truth is simple.
Transparency with the users is what helps keep them. Greed, selling out, or doing something similar to Google, Chrome or other browsers will just mean users leaving to them. Or, is this potentially what's intended?
Loyalty goes both ways.
Mozilla has a constant choice; its users, or something else $.
Please remember that there's a reason Firefox users have been loyal, and for so long.
I, for one, simply hope it remains a lasting relationship.
I admire Mozilla for actually putting something like this in their terms, as other entities have quietly been doing it for years.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

MyDataIsntYours — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 05:00:24 GMT

I feel like Mozilla’s legal department isn’t aware that Firefox’s user base is both technical and sensitive to legalese. The whole attempting to use the California definition of “sell” as an excuse for the change (without clarifying why) feels like the sort of thing that would land with a very broad audience but not one that’s stuck around almost exclusively because they value privacy enough to both be discerning and be willing to put up with a subpar browsing experience to preserve said privacy.

Someone there seriously needs to recognize that users aren’t going to respond to “here’s a slight tightening of the language so we can say we’ve heard you, while not addressing the actual issue”. Like I cannot imagine an outcome here where users are happy with anything less than fully reverting the changes. And we’re aware of what anchoring is.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

pepe — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 05:54:00 GMT

Time to move away from Firefox

It looks like I will have to program my own browser on top of everything else

Shame on you

jwz was right

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Cheerio — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 07:25:50 GMT

Don't even bother trying to walk it back now.

Your name is in the gutter and it will stay there.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Nick5 — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 07:32:24 GMT

So you're claiming that "Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data”)"

and

"the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.” "

Which is exactly how most people would describe selling data, so what have you been "selling" to who that NOW falls under this "new" definition?

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Erwan — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 11:07:53 GMT

I demand a clear return of the assertion of "not selling" our data. It's non-negotiable. Otherwise, don't pretend to have a community anymore.

Signed: A loyal Firefox/Thunderbird user and influencer.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 11:11:46 GMT

It all depends on how many users Firefox loses, I think. If the loss is in the 10 percent range, Mozilla will not explain anything to you and will simply ignore you.

However, a user loss of 30% or more will force Mozilla to reconsider its policy, and perhaps Mozilla will start explaining something.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

User42 — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 12:15:29 GMT

I've been reading lots of users' comments. Many people have already switched browsers. I am also now researching for the best FF replacement, thanks to community suggestions. After all these years...

You become greedy, your greed destroys you.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 12:18:57 GMT

I switched to Brave. Yes, the Firefox community doesn't like Chromium-based browsers. But Brave reminds me of early Firefox in the way they listen to the community.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 12:20:02 GMT

nice username, bro

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Do-not-sell-out — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 12:47:12 GMT

Don't sell our data ever. I don't want AI. I just want to watching silly internet videos and share it with my friends.

If you break the promise to not sell our data, people will leave. True not all of them but you will lose life long users.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

jchimene — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 18:27:34 GMT

@AshleyT

I chose to support Mozilla by subscribing to its VPN service. I canceled that subs. a few days ago.

It's sad to watch ensh*tification corrode Mozilla. There's so much good that's come from this effort.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

rdavidatwell — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 19:26:25 GMT

Far too little, far too late. It's an improvement in the same way that a house fire is an improvement over a forest fire: sure, it's way smaller, but there's still a lot of damage, it still ruins lives, and there's no reason it couldn't grow to become a forest fire anyway.

As I noted last week, for as long as this policy is in place (and as long as the Mozilla leadership shows no interest in understanding our concerns), I'm going to be moving to a fork for both desktop and mobile.

This is remarkably sad. I'm very disappointed in this turn of events.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

rdavidatwell — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 19:27:30 GMT

I switched to Fennec F-Droid on mobile and will be switching to Waterfox on desktop as soon as I have some time to do so.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

ttta — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 21:03:24 GMT

I might be a bit late about this, but I'm no less concerned.

The fact of the matter is that even with these updated terms, I can't in good conscience continue to use Firefox or any Mozilla product for that matter. I have already migrated my main system to one of the many forks, but all my other affected systems will follow. Additionally, I will be migrating the family members I steered towards Firefox, for these changes have destroyed the reason I recommended it in the first place: Privacy. I know Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge have similar policies, but the lack of these policies is the very reason I was using Firefox.

I echo the sentiment many have given here and want to add that at least from my perspective, I will not migrate back unless serious steps are taken to rectify the issue and reinstate my trust in Mozilla, should this even be possible.

The changes I'd like to see include:

Reverting the introduction of a Terms of Use as well as restoring the promise of never selling my data to the FAQ. Should this not be possible, I'd like to see a clear explanation with explicit reasons why it can't be done or, preferred, the modification of Firefox's and Mozilla's business model so that it becomes possible once more.
A refocus on the development of the Firefox web browser as Mozilla's main product, potentially pulling out of the AI and advertisement markets.
A potential change of management as it seems clear that the current leadership is not interested in Mozilla's historical goals and mission, otherwise I see no possible way of these new terms making it to users.
Lastly an honest apology to all users of the Firefox web browser.

I spent a sizable chunk of my day reading through this thread as well as https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/information-about-the-new-terms-of-use-and-updated-privacy/m-p/88011 and the message sent by your users as well as myself is very clear. I'm all for Mozilla being financially viable, but there is simply no use in it if it means abandoning all principles Mozilla and Firefox once stood for. There must be another way and I do hope you find it. Until then I must say that all my trust in Mozilla has been lost and that I will avoid Mozilla's products going forward.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Anonymous — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 21:18:43 GMT

The entire reason that I used Firefox, is that for years you claimed you Will Not sell my Data. I felt protected. It said right there on the FAQ, "we don't sell your personal data", and now it doesn't say that anymore. I am not comfortable with you using a "nonexclusive, royalty free, worldwide license to use my information" My content does not belong to you. I will no longer be using Firefox due to these changes, as there are now other, better options like Ladybird. You should rollback these changes that you have made if you want to keep your userbase.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Jon — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 21:41:10 GMT

Hey all,

Please continue sharing your feedback, voicing concerns, and asking any questions you have—we are continuing to monitor the discussion—but please remember the when participating here and across Connect. Several comments have been flagged/reported and ultimately removed, including some that have veered off the main topic.

Thank you.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 22:08:31 GMT

I think I will be banned for my boldness, but the community does not want to "monitor the discussion", but some actions.

I read all the messages in this thread, and as I understand it, the community wants the following:

1. Stop selling data and return "we do not sell your data and will not sell, it's a promise". This point is really important, it's like a flag on your new logo. Only a flag on a logo makes sense for Mozilla's board. And "we do not sell, it's a promise", this is the flag under which the community has advertised you everywhere for decades, this is the flag under which the community has been your personal loyal army.
2. If there are problems with funding, turn to the community for donations.

Since over the years of funding from Google, Mozilla has stopped discussing its actions with the community and has generally destroyed cooperation with the community, a possible solution would be
1. Temporarily suspend the changes that Mozilla plans to make
2. Start restoring trust with the community. Transparently tell how Mozilla plans to monetize user data, publish the texts of contracts with third parties, talk about other plans to monetize the community. That is, reveal everything that was discussed by management behind closed doors, and what was reported to the community in the style of "These aren't the droids you're looking for.", that is, "this is not the data sale you thought about."

Because so far everything looks like Mozilla management is just trying to wait until the community stops whining. And then push through the planned changes in order to receive management salaries all the time while Mozilla continues to sink.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Mon, 03 Mar 2025 22:22:51 GMT

I look like a loyal Firefox fan, and I have been for many years, since about 2002. And I will go back to Firefox if Mozilla does something right (this is not accurate).

I hope it happens before Firefox goes bankrupt and is bought by the Chinese.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

CAust — Tue, 04 Mar 2025 06:04:16 GMT

I have previously posted here with strong concern.

I have checked this issue out further. I suggest dedicated Firefox users check the situation before abandoning a browser and major internet initiative that we have all benefited from.

Louis Rossmann (youtube) does a good explore of this issue, re why this change may be legally required but not due to intentions to sell user data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bTquKjzos

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

seva — Tue, 04 Mar 2025 06:29:39 GMT

Personally, it is important to me that the Privacy Notice clearly states that such a type of data as "content"
1. is never transferred to a third party except as required by law. That is, the content should not be accessed by Partners, service providers, suppliers and contractors, Researchers, Mozilla controlled entities and successors
2. is never used for commercial purposes
3. is never used to train AI

Content

When you provide it to us, we may process data such as uploaded images or survey responses.

Uploaded image, bookmarks, comments, survey responses.

I also think it would be good if Mozilla clearly described in the Privacy Notice what type of data can be transferred to a third party and what not. Because right now the Privacy Notice does not say in any way what Mozilla will transfer to a third party and under what conditions.

Ideally, of course, it would be good if the user himself could uncheck the boxes in Firefox opposite the types of data that he does not want to share. But it seems that Mozilla is not going to give us this choice.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

baz — Tue, 04 Mar 2025 14:30:56 GMT

I've been a long term user of Firefox, initially it was having Tabs within the browser that hooked me since v1.5 (circa 2005/2006). I've never deviated away from the browser since. I actually got my whole family using it too. I liked the privacy aspect and it felt genuine. Now, with even the whiff of selling data, I'm out. If you can't even be honest about what you will do with 'our data' then that is worse than saying you're going to sell it.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

sorrel — Tue, 04 Mar 2025 17:29:42 GMT

I've been going back and forth on whether to mention this here, but for the sake of making sure someone at Mozilla is aware: it is looking like my PR to Nixpkgs to mark the Firefox binary packages as unfree (on the basis of clauses in the ToU under "You Are Responsible for the Consequences of Your Use of Firefox" which limit the user's freedom) may soon be merged: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/385857. It would seem greatly embarrassing if the largest and most up-to-date software repository in the world concluded that the official Firefox binaries were no longer free.

Personally, I think the Terms are poorly drafted and incoherent, in addition to being a violation of the FSF's standards of freedom. For example, "Termination" states that "Mozilla can suspend or end anyone’s access to Firefox at any time for any reason", which is highly concerning in its own right, but follows that up with "we will try to notify you at the email address associated with your account" – and last time I checked, using Firefox didn't require an account. It feels like this would be much better-placed as a set of terms for using, say, "Mozilla Online Services" (Sync, Monitor, whatever LLM thing you're doing now, ...) than for Firefox itself.

Re: An Update on our Terms of Use

Brinhffy — Tue, 04 Mar 2025 20:30:07 GMT

If anyone at Mozilla foundation is reading this: I would guess that your day to day focus is on emerging technologies, but Firefox is the reason you have funding and the reason that anybody knows or cares about Mozilla. The actions of the Mozilla Corporation speak louder than whatever else your foundation is doing.